The HabForum

Very true, Steve. I've been "stuck on the ground" in MOCR many times and I've enjoyed it as much as flying, especially as CAPCOM and Flight Director.

Phoenix PK wrote:Very true, Steve. I've been "stuck on the ground" in MOCR many times and I've enjoyed it as much as flying, especially as CAPCOM and Flight Director.

Good point, I enjoyed CAPCOM quite a bit last Fall...

When I come to Camp, I do the best job I can in whatever position I am assigned for each mission. Yet just like riding roller coasters, I like the front seats because they have the best view.

Maybe there should be a position lottery. Once you've manned a position, you're ineligible for it for any other missions for the remainder of the camp (unless you find someone willing to switch, i.e., a win-win). It cannot be any worse than any other method used. I have seen positions assigned for all missions at the beginning of Camp, I have seen positions assigned after lobbying of the counselors, I have seen positions assigned by counselors supposedly according to merit (how can you judge anyone's qualifications without giving everyone on the team a chance first? almost impossible....) which was supposed to prevent the lobbying abuses (but didn't). How hard can it be to spread things out? Take a bowling schedule, assign everyone a team number, say in order of registration, assign each position a lane number, then you go down the list.. Of course, that only works with an even number of people and positions... Can't have a bye...

Apparently, spreading positions out is very hard based on my experience. In five Camps, I have never been the flight director and my first EVA was last year. That's fine with me as long as I can pilot once. I am paying to come to Camp so if I get to do what I like, I am fine. That's why I like the longer camps with chosen tracks. You know what you're getting when you sign up so you have realistic expectations.

To me it is worth paying a bit more $$$ and signing up for a track like we did in Level II. That way, if you sign up for Aerospace Track, you know you'll be either Pilot or Commander without any suspense, games of chance, or arguments that can affect the cohesiveness of the team. Trainees in the Aerospace Track also got a customized curriculum focused on piloting that included some time at AC in the fighter jet sims. Loved it!

Otherwise, the only fair way to do it would be to drag all the guys who want to be shuttle commander over to AC and let them duke it out in the dogfight sims. May the best pilot win! Same would go for the EVA'ers, put them in the UAT and whoever has the best time assembling the tetrahedron gets first shot at the MS positions.

Hotdog wrote:To me it is worth paying a bit more $$$ and signing up for a track like we did in Level II. That way, if you sign up for Aerospace Track, you know you'll be either Pilot or Commander without any suspense, games of chance, or arguments that can affect the cohesiveness of the team.

That's not really an option for any of the current adult programs...

Hotdog wrote:Otherwise, the only fair way to do it would be to drag all the guys who want to be shuttle commander over to AC and let them duke it out in the dogfight sims. May the best pilot win! Same would go for the EVA'ers, put them in the UAT and whoever has the best time assembling the tetrahedron gets first shot at the MS positions.

Neither of those ways is fair. Your suggested process gives you the best gamer and best scuba diver.

majtom7 wrote:

Hotdog wrote:Otherwise, the only fair way to do it would be to drag all the guys who want to be shuttle commander over to AC and let them duke it out in the dogfight sims. May the best pilot win! Same would go for the EVA'ers, put them in the UAT and whoever has the best time assembling the tetrahedron gets first shot at the MS positions.

Neither of those ways is fair. Your suggested process gives you the best gamer and best scuba diver.

How is that not fair? A limited number of slots goes to the best qualified to do the job. That's how it's done in Houston!

I emailed Space Camp to see if they were making any plans where people going to the August 8-11 4-day Adult Space Camp would be able to go to the Hall of Fame Dinner and they sent the following reply. No schedule out yet but at least they are giving us time to go to the dinner if we choose.


Hi Kala,

The opportunity to attend the Hall of Fame dinner will be built into the camp schedule for that weekend.

Thank you,

p51 wrote:How is that not fair? A limited number of slots goes to the best qualified to do the job. That's how it's done in Houston!

Agreed, the best qualified get the slots in real life. Yet NASA management is much more sophisticated in its decision making process.

Dogfighting in a video game bears very little resemblance to what shuttle commanders and pilots do in the sims. You don't dogfight the orbiter. And while you may build a tetrahedron in an EVA sim, you're not doing it underwater.

Might as well use the Excalibur test while you're at it....

People are paying to come to Space Camp and everyone should get a chance. If you want to specialize, you pay more and have a specialized curriculum. Yet that's not an option now as you've already pointed out. It used to be. Anyone have any idea why it went away? Was it a lack of attendance? insufficient resources?

p51 wrote:How is that not fair? A limited number of slots goes to the best qualified to do the job. That's how it's done in Houston!

I replied yesterday but it looks like my post didn't go through. Yes, that works in the real world, when people are of similar skill to start out with and when they are competing for a job they are trained to do. However, Space Camp is a place to learn new skills. How is someone new expected to learn how to be a pilot and pilot a mission if their only chance to do so is via (cut-throat) competition, especially if they had no piloting skills beforehand? Being defeated in competition and never being given a chance to try new things is not an encouraging learning environment, and not how I want Space Camp to be. My husband never had any pilot training before attending camp (beyond minimal flight sim experience on his home computer), was chosen for EDM pilot, received some crash course piloting classes after-hours from a fellow team mate (EDM CDR), and did a fantastic job. It was the highlight of his entire week! I wouldn't want to rob someone of that opportunity just because they aren't a licensed pilot, expert video gamer, or member of the armed forces before they come to camp.

Same for SCUBA. Some people cannot SCUBA due to medical conditions beyond their control. It would be unfair (illegal, actually) to dismiss them for a role because they couldn't participate in the competition for head Mission Specialist position.

This is camp: a world of fantasy, a place to remove yourself from the real world. Quoting Space Warriors indirectly, but when you think you know it all, when you think you are the smartest person in the room, that's the time to sit back and listen. When you are the expert and don't get chosen for the prime roles, take the opportunity to use your expertise to teach others, mentor them, and help your team become better as a whole.

Fair enough, Jennifer, but how would you suggest these slots get filled if not everyone can do them due to time constraints?
If you just wanna pick them randomly (and my first time at SC that's exactly what happened), I'm fine with that. Otherwise, there has to be some way to judge on merit if it isn't random...

p51 wrote:Fair enough, Jennifer, but how would you suggest these slots get filled if not everyone can do them due to time constraints?
If you just wanna pick them randomly (and my first time at SC that's exactly what happened), I'm fine with that. Otherwise, there has to be some way to judge on merit if it isn't random...

In the past, counsellors picked positions based on the track you registered for (youth programs), randomly, or by choice. One year at adult camp, we put our name and requested positions on a ballot that was tallied and considered by the counsellors. It was very unpleasant when people got their assignments because everyone couldn't be CDR or PLT and those were the only positions half the team chose, which made several people upset. Thus, at the last adult camp I went to, positions were assigned completely at random, which added some really interesting twists to the week, and gave people opportunities they wouldn't have had otherwise or wouldn't have chosen for themselves. I, for one, wouldn't choose to be flight director (or any piloting position, really), but had a fun time doing it once I learnt what to do. If you were assigned a position you truly didn't want, then a switch could be made, but I found joy in trying new things. Even the tasks I didn't enjoy (as much) gave me a new appreciation for other people who do.

For off-season camps, I support the no track system and random position assignments. When camp is busier and has more trainers and the ability to break teams into smaller groups (tracks) for track-specific training, the track system works really well. Overall, i like being pushed out of my comfort zone once in a while and enjoy the challenge of trying new things and helping others.

Yeah, the first year I went, it was all random and I lucked up getting the PLT slot on the Charlie mission.
In September, they handed out a form asking which jobs you wanted on each for MOCR, ISS and STS. I put in for CDR and got it (I got everything I put in for; CDR, CAPCOM and flight engineer on ISS). I believe that nobody else understood what a CDR really does as no other CDR appeared to want it all that badly. I heard one other PLT, though, mention they were disappointed that they didn't get to actually land the thing. My PLT seemed to be just fine with not being on the stick.
Man, I sure wish they still had tracks for the adult programs...

p51 wrote: Man, I sure wish they still had tracks for the adult programs...

Me too! Hopefully there will be a 5-day adult program with tracks when I return to fly the Dream Chaser in a couple of years. Yeah, I know, I'm probably in dreamland on that one....

Hotdog wrote:Me too! Hopefully there will be a 5-day adult program with tracks when I return to fly the Dream Chaser in a couple of years. Yeah, I know, I'm probably in dreamland on that one....

If you were in Dreamland, you'd be flying it NOW!

p51 wrote:In September, they handed out a form asking which jobs you wanted on each for MOCR, ISS and STS. I put in for CDR and got it (I got everything I put in for; CDR, CAPCOM and flight engineer on ISS). I believe that nobody else understood what a CDR really does as no other CDR appeared to want it all that badly. I heard one other PLT, though, mention they were disappointed that they didn't get to actually land the thing. My PLT seemed to be just fine with not being on the stick.
Man, I sure wish they still had tracks for the adult programs...

Fascinating If it works out, most people get what they want. If it doesn't, that's a sure way to dissatsified customers.

I agree, tracks are the way to go. Yet there's the increased cost of more counselors to handle two groups.

It's always been the luck of the draw for me. My least favorite position (notice how I put that?) is being an ISS lackey doing "experiments," but even that can be fun. The best draw I ever got? Being the PLT with all the switch throws that go with it, then on re-entry the CDR unexpectedly announced that she couldn't land the bird and we had to switch seats (normally there's a software fix, but it didn't work), so I had to quickly climb into the left seat in time to take the stick. BEST of all worlds!

If I draw a CDR slot this year I've promised to switch with my buddy, p51. I know the hunger, babe!

(Back in the day, the guys would call each other "Babe.")

I'm an optimist, so I believe that adult ASA will return. If not, well, the Corporate route is always there, and is definitely the best option. Gotta have the warm bodies, though. Not the easiest thing to pull off.

There were THREE tracks you could do back in the day: Aerospace (CDR & PLT), Technology (PS) and Engineering (MS and ISS). The program was 8 days and culminated with either a 12 or a 24 hour mission

Yep! Been there, done both.... nothing like staying up 40 straight hours....

We had one guy who went to Otter's in his downtime on the 24 hour EDM, came back drunk, went to his position on ISS, said he had space sickness, then went and laid down somewhere on the station.

Hotdog wrote:There were THREE tracks you could do back in the day: Aerospace (CDR & PLT), Technology (PS) and Engineering (MS and ISS). The program was 8 days and culminated with either a 12 or a 24 hour mission

How popular were each track back then?
MAN, I wish camp was still like that for adults, I'd go with the Aerospace track for sure!