gunless at AC.

[tennisrox014]

Sooo... i forgot to mention that guns are no longer used at AC... even fake ones. Its kind of lame to have a military themed camp with no weaponry.

[Vincent]

And now in the simulators you fire Nerf darts instead of Hellfire missiles

[SpaceCanada]

I think people have taken the fun out of too many things out of paranoia that is far beyond what it needs to be.

No water in the sim bays either, right? Could be mixed with a gel powder to create explosives...

For goodness sake, I need permission forms to take Brownies on a bike ride through the park. Come on people... a bike ride in a small town park... Isn't droping the kid off at a field trip (with a bike) giving permission for the kid to attend? Grrr...

Politics... they ruin all the fun!

Soon everything will be coated in bubble wrap so we don't hurt ourselves by accidentally bumping into a corner on something. Do kids nowadays even know what bumps and bruises are? Scraped knees seem to be a thing of the past.

[Boomerang]

Well i don't like it i'm not suprised by it. Last summer when i visited AC i was with a coworker of mine who is also the parent of a child in late elementary school. She saw a group doing patrolling with guns and her first comment was she was suorised that parents would be willing to let there kids do something like that. Now when i went to ac we had no guns but i always thought it would have added to the realism of stuff we did.

Sadly the attitudes in this country seem to be going toward the idea that the only guns should be in the hands of the police and military. Its getting to the point parents want to ignore the real fact that guns are out there and would rather have there kis pretend the problem isnt there instead of learning how to safely handle them. Ok i'm trying to keep from getting on a soap box here but i am a proud owner of 3 legally owned fire arms used only for target shooting and am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment. Granted this has little or nothing to do with Ac but what does is the attitude toward fire arms in this country.

Sadly this attitude has led to eliminating marksmanship programs for children even though safety is always the top thing taught. Its led to parents arguing High school JROTC drill teams shouldnt be allowed to march with rifles even though in many cases they are replicas designed only for parade use and could never fire a shot. Its actually led to some school systyems encouraging kids to inform teachers and administrators if there parents own a gun even if its locked up and often leads to child protective services investigations. And sadly it has probably led to AC eliminating guns as well. I don't know the official reasons for it but my guess would be parents complaints or not wanting to present too milataristic an image or both. This is despite the fact that every program description for Ac describes it as a military based program that involves simulated combat. I don't know what peoiple think is used in combat baseball bats maybe. ok just my 200 cents sorry to go on so long but i'll come down off my soap box now.

[tennisrox014]

but get this... mach III 12-day kids get special 6 hour training on how to deal with a fake weapon, but the 12 day counselors arent allowed to have fake weapons at all.

i just dont understand the logic.

[Boomerang]

Oh i agree with you 100% its rediculous sadly its becoming more and more common a thing though to have happen.

[SpaceCanada]

What ever happened to harmless water guns?

[coffeediver]

Weapons have no place in the hands of children when the person in charge of said children has no idea as to the responsibilty of that weapon. And therein lies the problem with AC. You have a cadre of wannabes and losers who look to play pilot or soldier who can't or couldn't hack the real thing. There have been some exceptions to the rule of course.

AC should never have been about air combat. Yes, every shuttle commander and pilot is required to be a military aviator but look at them, more have come from the test pilot corps than anything. Patroling is not a pilot's mission, nor is hostage rescue. A pilot flies, period. If forced to the ground his mission is to evade until rescue. If captured he is to resist and escape. But children have no need to be trained in these techniques. Survival has it's place at AC, but anything that deals with the finer points of dispatching another human being should not be taught to children. Especially by people who are little more than children themselves.

AC has to change, not just because of the change in times, but because of it's relevance to Space Camp. There is none now and there never has been. The rivalry and ill will expressed by both trainees and their counsleor counterparts to the "other program" is just one of many other reasons AC should not exist as it does. Argue all you will, but trainees that attend AC primarily never go topside and vice versa, and the reason for this is that AC counselors and trainees have held themselves to be better than their space counterparts and that is a travesty.

One reason for this is that the ciriculum at AC has no realation to the topics taught up top and it should be. AC needs to be shutdown and rebuilt. Turn it into something that actually has something to do with the programs up top. Something that compliments it, not something that competes with it.

Space Camp and AC were founded on the ideal that children should be given the chance to see what it is like to be an astronaut, and while Camp fulfills this requirement, AC never has.

[Lingo]

Well, AC was designed to be a chance to see what it is to be a combat pilot. Survival is big, search and rescue is big too. I see no problem with the fake guns so long as proper tecnique is used for traning even with fake ones. I am a SAR pilot with the AF now and it is still a factor.

people who don't approve of firearms in the hands of young adults really should think twice about sending their children to AC

Lingo

[Sandrat]

Weapons have no place in the hands of children when the person in charge of said children has no idea as to the responsibilty of that weapon. And therein lies the problem with AC. You have a cadre of wannabes and losers who look to play pilot or soldier who can't or couldn't hack the real thing. There have been some exceptions to the rule of course.

AC should never have been about air combat. Yes, every shuttle commander and pilot is required to be a military aviator but look at them, more have come from the test pilot corps than anything. Patroling is not a pilot's mission, nor is hostage rescue. A pilot flies, period. If forced to the ground his mission is to evade until rescue. If captured he is to resist and escape. But children have no need to be trained in these techniques. Survival has it's place at AC, but anything that deals with the finer points of dispatching another human being should not be taught to children. Especially by people who are little more than children themselves.

AC has to change, not just because of the change in times, but because of it's relevance to Space Camp. There is none now and there never has been. The rivalry and ill will expressed by both trainees and their counsleor counterparts to the "other program" is just one of many other reasons AC should not exist as it does. Argue all you will, but trainees that attend AC primarily never go topside and vice versa, and the reason for this is that AC counselors and trainees have held themselves to be better than their space counterparts and that is a travesty.

One reason for this is that the ciriculum at AC has no realation to the topics taught up top and it should be. AC needs to be shutdown and rebuilt. Turn it into something that actually has something to do with the programs up top. Something that compliments it, not something that competes with it.

Space Camp and AC were founded on the ideal that children should be given the chance to see what it is like to be an astronaut, and while Camp fulfills this requirement, AC never has.

You post a lot of good thoughts, but let me expound on a couple of things.

AC was built around the concept of military aviation, and like you posted a great many of our astronauts have graduated from Test Pilot School and performed in the engineering aspects of military aviation. However, creating and utilizing software (from 1990-almost the present) that focuses on design, theory, and testing of experimental airframes was not something that AC could afford. Yes, test piloting should have been a MAJOR program addition, but it couldn't happen. What could happen?

Dogfighting.

As many of our astronauts are test pilots, there are quite a few who are combat veterans. Whether they be test pilot qualified or not, they've had to learn BFM (basic fighter manuever) at some point in their career. Capitalizing on the popularity and the romance of "Top Gun" was a great move to bring more students through the program. So why not teach the trainees what it would be like to be a high performance fighter pilot (not unlike the basic Space Camp mission of what it's like to be an astronaut).

Hence, land and water survival curriculum were introduced into the concept, as well as escape and evasion (which is NOTHING like SERE training that our pilots go through). The classroom activities also blossomed.

As part of a growing trend where the trainees wanted two things: more sim time and more escape and evasion, we created the patrolling event in 1996. Some form of that event ran well into recent history, and when I left AC the concept of AirSoft rifles was becoming something prevalent. As for the handling and use of handheld individual weaponry, I can say it wasn't there when I was there, and it wouldn't have had a place.

The water guns for E&E were for fun - the counselors knew it and the trainees knew it. We killed paintball (see Iron Gump) for similar reasons - it would be painful and it would send the wrong message for the camp.

Counselors as wannabees: During my time, there were more than a few officers, non-commissioned officers, enlisted soldiers, and officer candidates that worked for AC. Many of us are still actively involved in our service commitments. I can't speak to the current staff, but I'd say we had a fairly good track record (specifically with the Mach III program) of hiring people with a good knowledge base and some practical applications of the skills they were trying to teach. That very well might not be the case now.

As for attitudes, I can tell you that it was MUCH worse in1996 than it is now. AC always perceived itself as the red-headed stepchild of the Camp programs. They struggled for years to get equipment (hence the countless supply runs to get de-commissioned military items from giving posts) and develop educational materials. In 1996-1999, Space Camp's education department had NO connection with AC. All of the materials we developed (classes, curriculum, and events) came from our staff. We were in every sense of the word on our own. That's where the attitude comes from, and in some cases it was well spent.

However, when things got bad for the Center in 1999, the two programs really worked fairly well together through at least the rest of my tenure. So I can't speak about the last five years or so at Sprocket, but I can assure you that the way AC was designed was relevant to the times and the mission of the overall Camp programs, and it still could be. I agree with you that the SEAL operations and the training in weaponry is over the top, but I can't influence any decision or thought process from afar.

Lastly, funny how you should mention AC needing to be rebuilt, rethought, etc. Spanky and I had a plan to do something similar in 2000 and 2001 - not quite rebuild AC, but more closely align the two programs into a seamless environment. It never happened, sad to say, but it may still be something that the powers that be will consider.

Because it was a great idea - even Ed Buckbee thought so.

[SpaceCanada]

Wow, I never knew there was 'personal weaponry' stuff at AC. I thought they only meant water guns for E&E.

Any-who, I agree with a lot of what Sandrat said. AC has had some highs and lows. While I have never actually been to AC as a trainee I have learned a lot from the forum and some friends who have been there.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that military pilots, like everyone elese, still have to go through basic training, and there should be a little of that at AC, if only to show the kids what they have to do to become a military pilot.

Now, let us put the gun rant to an end... AC is still great and they will do what it takes to make it better as time goes on. I believe in them.

[Sandrat]

Now, let us put the gun rant to an end... AC is still great and they will do what it takes to make it better as time goes on. I believe in them.

Well put, there are much better things to talk about.

[jagsvolleyball14]

I remember when i went to ac christmas of 2004 when i was in mach 2, the final mission i remember seeing the mach 3s doin their mission and ALL of them had AirSoft rifles... and when i returned to camp the following christmas (2005) i was in mach 3 and we didnt have them but both of my counslers did and so im pretty sure the mach 1 & 2 counslers did also...but dont make my word on it... anyways they carried them around with them when ever we were doin our patrolling, missions, SAR, E&E, and such, but i was a little disappointed because we( the trainees ) had to make do with our hands... u kno crouch and piont your index finger at somebody...like when we were kids...) ...kinda cheesey i admit but it (the mission in general) was still fun.. but i also understand the circumstances and i agree with every thing sandrat said!!

[Space Nerd]

Having participated in both of the programs I can honestly say that I saw little connection between the two aside from the fact that if you were pretending to be a combat pilot you could conceivably pretend to be headed for the Astronaut Corps. That doesn't mean that I didn't like both programs because I enjoyed them both for different reasons. I think that the programs being separate is actually a better thing in the eyes of a trainee not for the competition but for the different experiences.

Now, having said that, when I was at AC in 2002 we patrolled and I enjoyed the activity. We didn't, however, patrol with weapons of any kind. In fact if I remember correctly one kid picked up a stick as a simulated weapon and was quickly told to put it down by our counselor. Personally, I see little reason for there to be any simulated weapons training or use at AC. I'm not saying this becuase I'm anti-weaponry or anti-NRA or anything of the sort. I honestly don't feel that there is any particularly good reason to place weapons, real or fake, into the hands of kids at a camp revolving around flight tactics and simulation. I think subject matter of such a serious nature would take the fun out of patrolling.

[ACluvR]

I am a 6 or 7 time AC vet. Trying to count and its all jumbled. But went from 1999 to 2003 religiously for X-mas camp and a summer session. I never saw any camper with a gun of any sort and only saw an air soft once and it was in a supervisors hands... but whatever. I love AC and the counselors have always done what they could. I remember talking to a couple counselors and supervisors while they were building the obstacle course... by hand.. The counselors and staff will always be the heart and soul of AC... they have to fight for everything they get... I always thought AC was related pretty well to Space Camp... its not like Space Camp is 100% accurate either. And I am proud to say that my counselors were generally the best around and most had military experience of some sort and actually knew what they were talking about... AC just has heart, its what keeps it running I think.

[pyro]

AC is the winning program and yet Camp gets the money because The Learning Channel or Taco Bell reconizes the name. I would like to see just one NASA "fly-by" before any sporting event in the United States....it won't happen until another "accident".

[Lingo]

Yep...I remember when the Great race passed through last year. They chose to focus on the AC area. I wonder why...

Gaw, I loved the centrifuge. cranking it to 3 g's and asking the "tough guys" to touch their noses....

I found ac's endorsment of military ideals to be refreshing. I remember taking my hybrid team the imax to hear Tom Cruise and seeing the mach 3 12 day-rs prepping an ambush in the middle of the museum. That was friggin' AWESOME!

Lingo

[Sandrat]

Yep...I remember when the Great race passed through last year. They chose to focus on the AC area. I wonder why...

Lingo

Somethings never change, though Space Camp has had more than its fair share of specials and press. Spreading the wealth to AC should be welcomed. More chances for the rest of the country to see what we know - that the program rocks. I wish more media could be pushed toward AC.