Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by Hotdog »

If I read this correctly, the Astrotrek building is going to be cleaned out and turned into a Space Shuttle exhibit. The old shuttle sims will be moved in there as part of the public display. All of the Astrotrek training equipment will be moved back to the TCF like it was in the 90s.

http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index ... ll_di.html
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by p51 »

From the article:
Shuttle era training simulators - no longer used by Space Campers practicing missions to Mars - hardware and other items will be displayed in the building that sits just behind a full-scale shuttle "stack" featuring an orbiter, solid rocket boosters and main tank.
Man, I really don't like the sound of that. Makes it sound like the Enterprise and Atlantis sims are already no longer being used... :cry:
Almost looks like they'll do with the 'Big E' what the museum in Seattle did with NASA's full orbiter trainer, make a big display out of it people can walk into (as seen in these photos I've taken of it):
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:roll: :|
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by majtom7 »

Sounds like Endeavour's new home...

It was really sad to see her gutted last year.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by p51 »

majtom7 wrote:Sounds like Endeavour's new home...
It was really sad to see her gutted last year.
Do you mean the real orbiter or the SC sim by the same name?
I never got to go into the Endeavour sim either time I was at Camp. Our trainer in 2012 said it wasn't as correct or complete inside as the Enterprise one and that they mostly used it for the kid groups. Last year, we had four adult teams at once, so I'd assumed someone used it for their sims. But if it was gutted, I guess now. Are you saying the sim is now an empty shell?
If so, the ideal thing would be to mount the Endeauvour nose on the Enterprise sim, you'd have the best of both worlds then!
If you're refering to real orbiter Endeavour as 'gutted', NASA didn't 'gut' any of the orbiters except to remove all the stuff that'd be a HAZMAT issue, and they yanked the Canadarm to give to the CSA for display.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by Hotdog »

I think I would put the Atlantis cockpit on the Enterprise body, and keep her in the TCF as the lone shuttle still to be used by Space Camp (I'm hoping they at least keep ONE shuttle sim active).

I would choose Atlantis since it was the most high-fidelity of the sims (at least, when I flew with her). Later on, quite a few of her buttons and switches were robbed to make the newer shuttle sims. Atlantis is also special because she was built for the 1986 movie. When they dismantle the other shuttle sims, they could restore her with the parts that were taken from her.

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Atlantis in 1987.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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p51 wrote: Almost looks like they'll do with the 'Big E' what the museum in Seattle did with NASA's full orbiter trainer, make a big display out of it people can walk into (as seen in these photos I've taken of it):
Image
:roll: :|
One of the other shuttle trainers was also converted into a museum piece in a similar fashion. Here is a photo I took of it at Wright-Patterson AFB a couple of weeks ago.

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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by p51 »

Hotdog wrote:I would choose Atlantis since it was the most high-fidelity of the sims (at least, when I flew with her). Later on, quite a few of her buttons and switches were robbed to make the newer shuttle sims. Atlantis is also special because she was built for the 1986 movie. When they dismantle the other shuttle sims, they could restore her with the parts that were taken from her.
I wasn't terribly impressed with the Atlantis sim when I commanded a mission on her last September...
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

Post by majtom7 »

I meant the motion sim Endeavour from my first camp in 1991 since the conversation concerns USSRC. Essentially just the cockpit with 2 MS seats, she was empty when I saw her last year with "Colbert" on the outside. I was surprised as those sims are expensive yet they are probably more expensive to maintain.

As far as the remaining actual orbiters go, NASA also removed all the main engine hardware from Endeavour and Atlantis for SLS, leaving Discovery as the vehicle of record.
Last edited by majtom7 on Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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WOW! Atlantis looks so bare! It's a shame they had to strip her down.

I noticed the "Colbert" Endeavour when I visited the TCF back in January. I didn't get a chance to peek inside. That will always be the true Space Camp Endeavour in my mind. I got to hitch a ride back on an Endeavour flight when I was Space Station Commander in 1992. I was also Commander of the Discovery mission that year, so I got to fly on two missions. Endeavour was the newest sim at the time.

Speaking of the Discovery sim, I was told they are planning to convert her into a Dream Chaser :D :D :D
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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Hotdog wrote:WOW! Atlantis looks so bare! It's a shame they had to strip her down.
Yeah, I was disappointed last September when they said we'd use Atlantis (because I loved how Enterprise is so complete, having been pilot on our Charlie mission in 2012) but pumped because I'd always heard that the Atlantis was the most correct looking one. When we climbed inside, not having been inside Atlantis before, I was pretty bummed to find that she looked pretty much exactly the same as Enterprise, and there was nothing aft of the bulkhead. And the MOCR was so much smaller as well. Lame. :|
I thought to myself, "Heck, this isn't more accruate looking at all." Would have been cool to have strapped into the Atlantis in that 90s photo, though.
All this might be a moot point. I'm not 100% how I feel about running a sim for something that has never even been test flown before (and might not even be what goes into space manned in the next few years). I simply refuse to accept that SC is going to move all the orbiter sims into the Astrotek building as museum pieces, especially in light of how they don't have the Orion sims squared away yet from what I've heard from several sources.
Especially the adult groups, most of whom would know the space program only by the shuttle (I barely recall the last Apollo missions and I'm in my mid 40s), having an orbiter to fly would still be a strong draw.
Strapping into a 'what might be' capsule and running a totally made-up mission profile? I can't honestly say I'd be as gung-ho about coming back to SC in the future if that's all that awaits me. It's the notion that you're strapping into a sim based on real life, that's a lot of the draw for me. Heck, I'd rather them build an Apollo capsule sim and run that until they know what to base future sims on!
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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I feel ya on this one, P51. I think Space Camp jumped the gun getting rid of Shuttle, in logo, and sims and otherwise. There seems to have been a mad rush to forget about the Shuttle, when we really should be milking it for as long as we can. In my opinion, it's too early to be getting rid of shuttle, when nothing has flown to replace it. How many shuttle successors have we seen proposed over the years, only to be cancelled? We are still not 100% sure Orion/SLS will be funded and fly. It's a huge gamble to develop sims for systems like Orion that *might* fly. What happens when they don't? Remember the HL-20 or the Space Launch System of the 90s? Shuttle-C? All were expected to fly, but died. I say let's drag the shuttle out for as long as we can, and wait until we have concrete flight plans and launch manifests before we integrate new sim hardware into the SC curriculum. This is just my personal mindset, although I am open and excited about all of the new space systems, especially the Dream Chaser spaceplane. As cool as these systems are, they are as fictional as the Mars climbing wall at this early stage.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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Hotdog wrote:There seems to have been a mad rush to forget about the Shuttle, when we really should be milking it for as long as we can. In my opinion, it's too early to be getting rid of shuttle, when nothing has flown to replace it. How many shuttle successors have we seen proposed over the years, only to be cancelled? We are still not 100% sure Orion/SLS will be funded and fly. It's a huge gamble to develop sims for systems like Orion that *might* fly. What happens when they don't? Remember the HL-20 or the Space Launch System of the 90s? Shuttle-C? All were expected to fly, but died. I say let's drag the shuttle out for as long as we can, and wait until we have concrete flight plans and launch manifests before we integrate new sim hardware into the SC curriculum. This is just my personal mindset, although I am open and excited about all of the new space systems, especially the Dream Chaser spaceplane. As cool as these systems are, they are as fictional as the Mars climbing wall at this early stage.
I agree 100% with this. Frankly, I cannot see SC yanking out all the orbiter sims (which work really well and can be crewed by as many as 7 or so people) in favor of building other sims which aren't tested and are based on vehicles that don't really exist yet.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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USSRC lacks the funds to replace the shuttle sims with anything. I think this is more about making the MASTIF, 1/6, and 5DF available to the public.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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majtom7 wrote:USSRC lacks the funds to replace the shuttle sims with anything. I think this is more about making the MASTIF, 1/6, and 5DF available to the public.
That makes some sense, they could charge to throw people in those...
Imagine charging non-camper visitors a fee to do an approach/landing in the orbiter sim? Heck, I'd be willing to pay for that before and after I go to camp in any given year!
Last edited by p51 on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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My parents will be there in November. With no adult camp that late in the year, which we were hoping to surprise my Dad with but cannot, he would be tickled pink to ride a few sims, or even tour around the TCF/MCC if the option was available. So opening sims to the public, even if for a fee, would be a wise move and bring in some additional revenue. The camp would still have many exclusive activities (missions, camaraderie, briefings, etc.) to draw in participants.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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p51 wrote:Imagine charging non-camper visitors a fee to do an approach/landing in the orbiter sim? Heck, I'd be willing to pay for that before and after I go to camp in any given year!
They already have that for free. You start at 10,000 feet. Last year, it was sitting near the UAT tank. There used to be two, each with two pilot seats so that two people could use it at the same time, but that was the only one I saw. The software used to be for sale 20+ years ago. Now you can buy this: http://www.space-shuttle-mission.com/ There's also a free share program called Orbiter.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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majtom7 wrote:
p51 wrote:Imagine charging non-camper visitors a fee to do an approach/landing in the orbiter sim? Heck, I'd be willing to pay for that before and after I go to camp in any given year!
They already have that for free. You start at 10,000 feet. Last year, it was sitting near the UAT tank. There used to be two, each with two pilot seats so that two people could use it at the same time, but that was the only one I saw. The software used to be for sale 20+ years ago. Now you can buy this: http://www.space-shuttle-mission.com/ There's also a free share program called Orbiter.
No, I mean climbing into one of the camp's full sims. That's totally different from the low-tech sims the public can hop into. Greasing a landing in one of those is really easy, the camp sim is a little tougher (and cooler when your sitting in the middle of it).
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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p51 wrote:No, I mean climbing into one of the camp's full sims. That's totally different from the low-tech sims the public can hop into. Greasing a landing in one of those is really easy, the camp sim is a little tougher (and cooler when your sitting in the middle of it).
Agreed on the cool factor but they'd get few bites at what they'd have to charge to make money. They'd have to dedicate a sim & MOCR for the day plus at least two people, one to run the sim, one to watch the pilot. They might have to make it handicap accessible, too.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/12/travel/de ... ?hpt=hp_c3

Delta charges $395 for 45 minutes in their 737 sim for 1-4 people.

I've not been to this museum yet.
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Re: Space Shuttle exhibit/retirement of Shuttle sims

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majtom7 wrote:Delta charges $395 for 45 minutes in their 737 sim for 1-4 people.
I've not been to this museum yet.
Got to make a point of going through there the next time I fly out of Atlanta alone.
as for sims, I once did a joint op with the USAF and after us truly embarassing several of them behind the controls of an M1-A1 tank, they thought they could show us up by tossing us into a full B-52 sim. They had the entire nose section forward of the bombay in a building with all the controls hooked up.
While a few of our people did fly the BUFF (look up what that means, it's not family-friendly but it's what the B-52 is known by) into the ground, especially on landing, I baffled the blue suit types by not only getting the B-52 off the ground, but through a traffic pattern and back onto the runway in a crosswind. Nobody else with me knew that the BUFF has steering for the main gear, so you can allign the gear with the direction of the runway even when your nose is pointed into the wind. "Crabbing," they called it back in the day. When I asked where the control for that was, their jaws collectively dropped. I didn't completely grease the landing, but one pilot later admitted that I'd done better than several real life BUFF pilots had in that sim in the past. Any landing you can walk away from, they say...
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