Pre-modern Sims

The place where campers hang out after a long day in the sims.

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airkale
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Pre-modern Sims

Post by airkale »

Hey guys,

I know you have probably covered this somewhere, but I was looking around the other day in some older posts and had a question about the Atlantis sim. How good of a representation was it to the actual equipment back in the day when the sim was in its prime? I remember back in the mid 90's when I was the commander of Discovery and the sim played a video during landing, rather than your actual flight path, despite the fact the sim had motion.

You know I had another idea the other day that poped into my head. Wouldn't it be awesome to get an older -100, -200, -300 days 747 full cockpit simulator to simulate the Shuttle Transport Aircraft. Dream on, but it would be neat.
Kale

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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

Kale just found some pictures taken in the Atlantis cockpit in its glory days of the late 80s. i remember seeing it look like this in 93 but had no pictures to support what i remember but it shows the cockpit looked much more complete than Enterprise did when i went in the late 90s. Also for a comparison of how good Atlantis is the famous picture of 2 space camperson the flight deck looking back toward the camera was Atlantis as well. http://lovelyrita-mm.com/2009/02/moar-space-camp/
Jason original callsign Loverboy
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Hotdog »

Wow! Excellent find Boomerang! Those pictures are how I remember Atlantis and the glory days of Space Camp! I wish my pictures turned out as good as those! While I have a few decent photos from back in those days, I remember some of the best pics I ever took were lost forever when I dropped my 35mm camera on the concrete next to the picnic tables in between the rocket park and the shuttle park. Some of the images I had on that roll of film would have been the stuff of Space Camp lore had they gotten the proper exposure! Oh well.

When I first came to Space Camp in 1989, the Atlantis sim was still the "crown jewel" that every trainee wanted to fly. It was built by Wonderworks for the Space Camp movie which was the inspiration for most of us to come to Space Camp in the first place! It was the most high-fidelity sim, at least as far as having all of the buttons and controls. In reality, Discovery or Enterprise probably offered a more realistic overall simulation, but at the time, I was more impressed by a more authentic cockpit rather than the experience itself.

Over time, Atlantis was robbed of her switches and buttons so that newer Shuttle cockpits could be built. You could see this as early as 1994. I had hoped to get Atlantis for my mission that year, but after seeing some of the changes, I was fine with having drawn the Enterprise. I was Space Academy Level II by then, and the idea of flying an orbiter with a stripped-down cockpit just wasn't worth the price of tuition to a 3-time Space Camp veteran.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by airkale »

Hey Jason,

Nice site, that was a good blast from the past.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by p51 »

Hotdog wrote:When I first came to Space Camp in 1989, the Atlantis sim was still the "crown jewel" that every trainee wanted to fly. It was built by Wonderworks for the Space Camp movie which was the inspiration for most of us to come to Space Camp in the first place!
I flew the Atlantis sim as CDR in September, never having even stepped into the thing the previous year. The trainer told me that it was built for the SC movie, but does that mean it was built to represent the real Atlantis? If so, the over construction doesn't look correct to me at all when you watch the film for the 'going into space for real' scenes and I was under the impression those were filmed on a rented, pre-existing shuttle deck.
The scenes that take place at Huntsville for the movie when using the sim also seem to be in a totally different structure than I saw in the Fall. I took plenty of shots of how the interior was constructed and it doesn't match the film for either case.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

It was supose to represent the real Atlantis in the movie. Atleast thats the story camp has always told was it was used to film the movie. Some things i've read about foilming make me question this though too but i don't really know. I remember reading some background stuff that said they way they filmed zero g stuff was suspending the cockpit that was used for fiming in a rig and turning it as needed so actors could stand in a spot as needed to appear like they were coming in from a diffrent angle like they were floating and not standing. This never seemed likely to me with Atlantis unless it was used for some scenes and another rig for the ones described above.

Regardless Atlantis even in 1993 was a very complete cockpit much more than it is today and much more than Enterprise was when i used it in the late 90s. Both have been stripped down even more since then to accokodate the shuttle landing software used now they added new screens where instruments use to be trying to give it a glass cockpit look as best they can but to me it just looked bad. I've even seen pics of Atlantis most noticelbly in the famous camp promotional photo that was used for so many years of the two campers on the flight deck lloking back that Atlantis even had Personel Egress Air Packs on the back of the commander and pilot chairs at one time just as the shuttles had pre challenger.
Jason original callsign Loverboy
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by p51 »

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just don't see it. There are overall design elements in regard to the layout of interior walls which don't click with the 'Atlantis' in the movie. Also, take a good look at the walls, that doesn't look like the plywood and paint construction I saw last Fall.
If it's the one used as the real Atlatis in the movie, they not only yanked out everything, they changed the overall framework of the interior. Knowing that, they'd have had to change so much that building a new one would have been easier, I'd think.
While it might be the one in the movie, I wouldn't bet five bucks on it.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

I don't nessecarily disagree with you on this one like i said i have had my questions about this story as well your evidence makes some interesting points as well. Whether it was used in the film or not it had considerably more detail and a more complete cockpit at one time than it does today. Not the first time camp would have given out questionable or completely wrong information. Counselors still show campers the MAT used in the movie, their evidence holes drilled in the frame where the control panel with the joy stick was attached. I'm not saying it wasnt the one used in the movie but their were two MAT's with control panels though no joystick into the early 90s atleast as late as 91 they were removed by 93. So holes in the frame of one MAT doesn't automaticly make it the one used in the movie though it could be.

The one piece of information that is told to campers all the time, have also seen printed in visitor info that is wrong is they tell campers it's a Saturn 1B in the rocket park when in fact it's a Saturn 1. There have been a few other just wrong pieces of info i've heard over the years as well. There was also the fact that many many many campers went away from camp believing payload specialists were career astronauts, that all Mission Specialists were engineers and only did space walks and engineering task and Payload specialists were always scientists and medical doctors.

Just shows eroneous info has been put out there by the camp for many years. Some is questionable some is just outright wrong.
Jason original callsign Loverboy
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by airkale »

Man I miss you guys, talking up the old sims is making me want to go back and hang out on the training floor. The first time when I went back for the alumni acad was really the first time I was "cut loose" to do whatever I wanted at the facility. I really wish I would have had that opportunity when I was an actual camper in the 90's. I remember seeing all the awesome sims discovery with spacelab and RMS with MMU, and Enterprise of course, but not being able to spend time in them back when they were in thier prime. I never even went into Atlantis, Enterprise, all the ISS and space station modules, or the upper flight deck of the original Columbia back in the day.

Speaking of the STA, I'm hoping that the cockpit is open when the finish the mounting and display at Space Center Houston. If you don't know about that project, google it. I think its going to be really cool.

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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

I was lucky enough to see Atlantis in 93 before they really started stripping her down. You didn't miss much with Columbia the flight deck was cool as an elementary school kid in the early 90s afterall it even had a computer but was not much to look at todays kids would probably laugh at it. I did hear they remodeled Columbia sometime after 91 and improved it but never saw its insides after 91 so don't know what changes were made.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by p51 »

Okay, the one full mockup is Enterprise, the crew compartment only is Atlantis and the thrid is Endeavour, when did the names change and which one was which back in the 80s and 90s? I assume that the one got renamed from Columbia after the 2003 breakup, right?
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by airkale »

So does anyone know about the control systems before the current one they put into the sims (and loss of the distinctive CRT bulges on the windows)? I remember that the windows displayed basic images of what you would think to see on the outside of the orbiter. I assume that the orbiter knew the status of the switches and things, as we had to clear malfunctions etc. Did it keep track of what was done? Was this data used to determine the best mission? What was up with the "video" landing?

Later,
Kale

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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

p51 wrote:Okay, the one full mockup is Enterprise, the crew compartment only is Atlantis and the thrid is Endeavour, when did the names change and which one was which back in the 80s and 90s? I assume that the one got renamed from Columbia after the 2003 breakup, right?
Trying to compare current names and former names gets complicated.

Columbia was one of space cam ps earliest sims. It was never renamed but was removed in 2002 a few months before the accident. It had already been replaced in most cases for space camp programs by Intrepid. Ok easy so far but wait it gets better.

Discovery which is still in use but now is only a motion based cockpit started with the cockipt that still exist, a partial cargo bay with space lab module and a robot arm. the spacelab and cargo bay and arm were dismantled a few years ago this was the sim in the very back of the training center in the old photos. The cockpit is still used.

Atlantis came into use about the same time as the current training center opened circa 1988 it is still the same sime they use today though much stripped down.

Enterprise full front fiusealge some what shortened cargo bay robot arm and from the early 90s on space hab came into use about the same time as Atlantis from what i understand though it didn't always have the name.

Endeavour is the complicated story. there have been two of them. The first was a motion based cockpit like disvocery though it had no cargo bay space lab etc. It featured a flight deck and right behind the flight deck a much truncated mid deck area. doesnt seem like much but from what i saw it was a more complete cockpit layout than Discovery's. at some point prior to the removal of Columbia id say 2000 they brought in intrepid the front fusealge trainer at the front of the training center today. At some point the motion based Endeavour was removed and put into storage and Intrepid was renamed Endeavour. Later they brought the motion based Endeavour back and the current shuttle at the front of the training center became Intrepid again. when they were reworking things for constellation a few years ago they turned the motion based endeavour into a exploration vehicle to my knowledge it still hasnt been used as such and Intrepid once again became Endeavour.

Hot Dog can attest to this but i believe at one time none of the covkpits had names connected directly to them and teams actually chose their own name to use. Though i think this was primarily pre challenger
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by p51 »

I was told that the current Endeavour is a very low-fidelity mockup and our trainer in 2012 said mostly the kid programs use that. She described it as, "much better looking on the outside," and it was the only thing on the floor we didn't tour. I didn't get inside it last Fall, either.
Boomerang wrote:When they were reworking things for constellation a few years ago they turned the motion based endeavour into a exploration vehicle to my knowledge it still hasnt been used as such and Intrepid once again became Endeavour.
And ironically, I have never seen this motion based simulator ever being used (I've never seen anyone even standing close to the thing), nor have I ever seen the Orion being utilized at all, for anything, except in one tour at the start of my first SC session, in 2012 where they opened the hatch and let us peek inside.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

The old Endeavour the motion based one i dont think has been used for anything it was repainted beyond that i don't know anything else done to it. Like i said it was supose to be like the crew exploration vehicle NASA has been developinmg and testing in the desert. I'm not sure if any software was ever created for the sim or anything else was done besides the new paint job.

The old Columbia was also a very low fidelity sim as well but it was cool as a kid at a time when computers were still not in every home. Today I doubt it would get the same enjoyment with modern kids
Jason original callsign Loverboy
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by airkale »

You know guys, I do not know why we haven't put together a web site with the history of the training floors and the sims. I know Jason and I have talked in length over the years about all the sims and thier history and they are just as much a peice of history as the real deal sims NASA uses. Vincent, maybe we can put something together? Let me know what you think. The site could be the simulator equevilent to the field guide of amercan spacecraft site.

Not only have the sims gone through many evevolutions, so has the layout of the training floor, the arival of astrotek, the old bubble moving to aviation challenge, and all the different space staton modules. You could almost write a book on it.

Anybody interested in doing something like this?
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Hotdog »

Boomerang wrote:The old Endeavour the motion based one i dont think has been used for anything it was repainted beyond that i don't know anything else done to it. Like i said it was supose to be like the crew exploration vehicle NASA has been developinmg and testing in the desert. I'm not sure if any software was ever created for the sim or anything else was done besides the new paint job.

The old Columbia was also a very low fidelity sim as well but it was cool as a kid at a time when computers were still not in every home. Today I doubt it would get the same enjoyment with modern kids
Yesterday I had the privilege of walking around the TCF and I got to go inside some of the sims. Talk about a trip down memory lane! I snapped this pic of the old Endeavour sim, now repurposed as "Colbert". I'm including an image of Endeavour in 1991 for comparison.

Image

Does anyone know about this sim and what it's used for? I couldn't find much about it searching Google. Maybe someone who has been to Space Camp recently can tell us more about it.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Boomerang »

Last i heard the old Endeavour sim isnt really being used at the moment. Last i heard it was intended to be an exploration vehicle for MARS, Moon, and Asteroid missions like the one NASA has been working on and has been tested by the Deser RATS team. Something along the lines of this http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uplo ... r_lead.jpg NASA is also developing a free flying version for Asteroid missions.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by Dyna-Soar »

Man, that brings back memories. That was the shuttle I was on in '04.
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Re: Pre-modern Sims

Post by airkale »

What happened to the capsul type sim that thay made for the Constellation program? Is this possibly it?
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